Low Cost Solar Panels

(Firstly I apologise for the length of this, but I wanted to clarify the whole situation just so there’s no ambiguity).

Here in Brisbane, Australia we get 7-8 sun hours per day on average (source: http://www.livingin-australia.com/sunshine-hours-australia/ ); our household uses ~20kWh per day based on the average of all the power bills for 2009. Using this calculator ( http://www.bdbatteries.com/panelcalculator.php … too bone idle to crunch the numbers myself) it tells me the ideal system is 3.2 kW. Our house has a large north-facing roof so that is excellent enough for solar panels. For practicality (and to keep the numbers conservative) I sourced the figures for a 3.5kW system which is within the price range of $30-40k, but after selling RECs (Renewable Energy Certificates) and taking advantage of federal and state subsidies and offsets it is priced at ~$15-20k; I’ll assume a worst case (say, $25k) to keep it conservative.

With a Home Equity Line of Credit Loan we currently have $220,000 in debt overall. At ~6.5% interest the monthly repayments are ~$1,190. If we were to throw the $25,000 for the entire solar setup onto the loan, the loan would increase to $245,000 and interest would be ~$1,330 per month, a $140 increase. Since we are currently paying $126 per month ($4.20 per day) in power bills, it seems it is not worth it. But, 3.5kW x 7.5 avg sun hours gives 26.25kWh daily, or ~6.25kWh more than is needed. When taking into account the 44c/kWh feed-in tariff that is a lowest possible return of ~$82.50 per month (I say "lowest" because it is real-time net metering, so if we have nothing running during the day it will send a lot of power priced at 44c/kWh to the grid; when we buy it back when we are back from work at night it will cost only 16c/kWh, so overall we will gain more than $82.50 per month).

So then if we had to pay $140 extra per month on the loan but that eliminates $126 per month in power costs and includes $82.50 at the minimum in feed-in credits, is that is effectively a saving of $68.50? I know it isn’t really a saving per se since simply paying loan interest doesn’t reduce the loan’s size, but to me it seems to be a saving since the power cost of $126 per month will always be there so it may as well be went from one account (elec) to another (HELOC loan) without making much difference financially; also the HELOC loan can be paid off and thus interest repayments become lower, while the cost of electricity is only set to rise (on top of inflation-adjustment each year, we are expecting sharp rise when the carbon trading scheme gets passed, and the generators were granted a 16% increase for January 2010 anyway!!!). Additionally when the 3 kids have went out of home the power use will drop, leaving more electricity for the grid (so more money returns) in addition to less expenses overall (so the HELOC loan will be simpler to pay off) – seems like a double win!

There are two major downsides that I can immediately see: variable interest rate rises and home valuation. But for the latter, I am not sure whether it is really a problem. For all I know, solar panels would most likely increase the value of one’s home (seems to be logical anyway), which in turn means more flexibility regarding the floor of the HELOC loan if it is needed.

I am somewhat naive regarding how HELOC works so that is my main concern in this plot. So is this too excellent to be right, or have I missed something (I generally don’t believe in "too excellent to be right" hence why I am asking).
Naive re HELOC; I am one of the 3 kids mentioned in the question (19yo) so this is just for me to propose to my parents as an thought.

Not terrible. I’ll answer with what I know about California (USA) – it may or may not apply to where you live.

If your power utility offers net metering on an annual right-up basis, then less sun in the winter doesn’t matter. You would theoretically build up a credit on your power bill in the summer, and draw it down in the winter.

If your utility offers time-of-use metering, where the rates are higher during the sunny hours, then you may not need to size your system so large.

The value for sunlight hours – was that "peak equivalent sun," intended for sizing solar systems? In the winter here, the sun is out for 10 hours, but the equivalent sun is only about 2 hours, when dawn, dusk, and overcast weather are taken into account.

If your utility is set up such that they will never pay you cash for power, then it’s pointless to size your system so large that you might generate more than you use over the course of a year. This is in fact how the utility works where I live. The first year that our system was installed, we generated $80 more electricity than we used. We didn’t get a check for it, the balance was just set back to zero at the end of the year, as a donation to the grid.

What you should do is question a professional installer to look at your house and make a quote. They will probably know about the financing angle, too. Then choose whether it’s truly a value, or whether they’re trying to do a sales job on you.

I have a few questions about solar panels and batteries.
1. looks to me that 60 watt solar panels are the most common and cost efficient. I know that a 60 watt panel produces 60 watts of power at 12vdc. lets say i have five hours sun on the panel. how long would it take for a 60 watt panel to charge a standard 12 vdc battery from basically dead to full charge. I know it depends on the type of battery, but let’s just call it a standard car type battery. looking for just general info not exact science info.
2. if one panel is capable of charging one battery in less than 5 hours of sun. how many batteries can it charge completely in 5 hours of sun?
3. using a 12 to 120 volt power converter to get 120 volts from a battery how many watts of power are you able to pull from a battery before the charge is to low to be usable without a recharge. again, i know there are variables to take into consideration, but i’m looking for just general answers. like for example, "X" watts of use for"X" hours.
4. I assume a 60 watt panel is a 60 watt panel? meaning, all 60 watt panels are made equal, they basically all produce basically the same amount of power with basically the same efficiency.
5. with a solar panel is it better to catch the morning sun or afternoon soon or does it matter? I know the more amount of sun you catch, the better.
6. in order to take advantage of the tax credit, do you have to use a professional installer or if i buy the panels, converter, batteries, etc, myself and install myself can i claim the tax credit?

1. A 60 watt panel produces 12 vdc @ 5 amps at maximum sun. Realistic power is about 70% average throughout the day. So, your output will be about 40 watts. Take a battery with a reserve rating of 120 minutes. That is it will take 120 minutes for the battery to drop to 10.2 v when discharged at a constant 25 amps. That’s about 250 watts in two hrs. To recharge the battery, you have to place back 250 watts in 2 hrs (not realistic – battery hurt). But 40 watts recharge will take 12.5 hrs to recharge the battery.

2. Can’t answer. How much less than 5 hrs? But a 60 watt panel won’t recharge the battery in 5 hrs.

3. Inverters are only about 75% efficient (depending upon design). Usually, when battery power drops below 10 volts, the inverter shuts down. And that would depend upon reserve capacity of the battery and how much power you draw from the inverter. A 120 minute reserve capacity battery with a 75% efficient inverter gives you 90 minutes at 300 watts (12 v @ 25 amps).

4. Any assumptions about this item makes all other calculations unuseable.

5. The sun at high noon is the brightest – less atmosphere to scatter the sun’s rays.

6. The tax credit only applies if you have it professionally installed and tied to the electrical grid. It may also apply to 100% off-grid systems. It does not apply to self-installed units. Our utility will not permit self-installed solar systems to be tied into the grid. Yours may.

especially in tamil nadu

your best bet will be to look into home made panels. my son did this for his physics class also http://earths-renewable-energy.com/ they give you the list of needed materials and step by step how to. all parts can be bought from home depot or other hardware stores, total cost was way less than buying already made solar panels

In 1960 the production cost of IC (Integrated Circuits) was $1000/IC, now the cost are cents or less because the high demand and the improvement of the production process. At that time the only demand for ICs was military and space programs.

Are there people interested in not promoting the demand and/or production improvement of solar panels (oil, car companies) or it is only a technological issue?

In 1960, $1000 may not even have bought 1 watt of solar cells, but today, 1 watt (a fraction of a cell) costs about $4. So prices have come down.

The difference between solar panels and IC’s are that solar panels have a lot of raw material, and IC’s have very small. The material cost (not counting processing) of an IC may be just a few cents, but a solar panel has a significant amount of silicon, not to mention an aluminum frame, and hermetically sealed low-iron glass. So a solar panel can never be 25 cents, any more than a double-pane glass window can be 25 cents.

That said, I reckon panel prices will drop some 20-25 percent in 2009.

For bacteriological testing of water supplies and in medical clinics, samples must routinely be incubated for 24 h at 37 degrees Celsius. A standard constant temperature bath with electric heating and thermostatic control is not suitable in developing nations without continuously operating electric power lines. Peace Corps volunteer and MIT engineer Amy Smith invented a low cost, low maintenance incubator to fill the need. The device consists of a foam-insulated box containing several packets of a waxy material that melts at 37.0 degrees Celsius, interspersed among tubes, dishes, or bottles containing the test samples and growth medium (food for bacteria). Outside the box, the waxy material is first melted by a stove or solar energy collector. Then it is place into the box to keep the test samples warm as it solidifies. The heat of fusion of the phase change material is 205 kJ/kg. Model the insulation as a panel with surface area 0.490 m^2, thickness 9.50 cm, and conductivity 0.012 W/m degree Celsius. Assume the exterior temperature is 23.0 degrees C for 12.0 h and 16.0 degrees C for 12.0 h. (a) What mass of the waxy material is required to conduct the bacteriological test? (b) Clarify why your calculation can be done without knowing the mass of the test samples or of the insulation.

The heat dissipated will be:
heat / time = conductivity * area * temp difference / thickness

The total heat of fusion released by the solidifying wax is:
heat = specific heat of fusion * mass

Solve for the mass of the waxy stuff:
mass = conductivity * area * temp difference * time
/ (thickness * specific heat of fusion )

You’ll have to do it in two parts because you have two temperature differences for two different times.

b) Having just demonstrated how to calculate how much waxy stuff needs to solidify, it seems redundant to clarify why we don’t need other stuff. The mass of the test samples is pretty much irrelevant to how much heat comes or goes. And the mass of the insulation factors into the conductivity and the dimensions which are given.

I’m italian and I need a small summary of the follow subject: " THE ACTIVE METHOD uses specially designed heat collectors where, commonly, the storage medium is water, then the heat can be transported by low-power electric pumps (sometimes by gravitation) to a main storage tank to supply the hot water, or circulated to radiators for space heating.
PHOTO VOLTAICS (PVs) this is perharps the most exciting area because it is capable of supplying large amounts of energy both on a local and more central scale.It is also fascinating because the devices (the cells modules or arrays) are constantly being improved by research and development, and production costs are being reduced. Most of us are familiar with the solar panels used in the space programme, well the reality on the ground is similar. Normally a large array of cells is interconnected and positioned sensibly to expose the surface area to the sun as much as possible" .
I need it small and with simple words, thank you everyone for your time!!

(I’m assuming both of these are related to alternative energy production)

Summary:
The power of sunlight can be captured in a number of ways. One way, called the Active Method, collects the energy of the sun in water (in hoses arranged on the roof, for example). The water in the hoses is heated by the sun and we can use gravity to transfer this heated water to a main storage tank to supply hot water for washing, or heat the house through radiators.
A second way to use solar power is through photo-voltaic cells (PVs). Sunlight is collected through a large number of solar panels which are connected to each other and aimed to get the best exposure to the sun. The energy from these panels is stored in batteries, and can provide for some or all of the electricity needs of a home.

I’m an anarchist, but unfortunately the government isn’t exactly my ideal right now. If we are going to have a taxer and a handouter, then why not do this, I believe it would make jobs and restore credit and wealth for Americans. Why doesn’t the government place nice modular homes up, which will open the doors to many construction jobs and then sell the houses for what they cost to make and build, sell these homes on government loans for low interest rates, like %1-%3 and let Americans get a home for a cheap cost in new condition, they can at least be made somewhat eco friendly, itd be to expensive to place solar panels on them, but you get the gist right? Decent modular homes, and they don’t have to be made and look all the same. Local government and economies would do well from this too, the amount of property tax coming in would increase in a number of people moving into homes, and also people would see more money and people of low incomes might be able to afford a home, and it would give them the sense of being more secure, maybe start spending more money. Like on things to place in the house…you know what I mean? Why wouldn’t this work?

Sounds like a excellent thought but it won’t happen. The government may have social programs but the people will fight tooth and nail to make sure we don’t have a Socialist Government.Builders want to make larger profits and local governments want more expensive homes so they can tax on a higher tax basis. They get more raises in their own paychecks by doing so.Making a buck supersedes common sense.When it comes to any Government the trend is to complicate things not simplify things.

Hello all,

I have recently submitted an offer on a house in Scotland and I have a few questions.

The house is heated by electric storage heaters. This heats the house and water. What I want to do is improve the energy efficiency of the house by either installing more efficient modern storage heaters, or installing some kind of solar panel arrangement.

Of course all of this cost money and I wondere if anyone had any previous experience in gaining grants or government support for such works. I know they exist and are available, i’m not sure how to go about it.

If ther are any orther thoughts for improving efficiency other than the obvious ones i.e, thickening the insulation and using low energy bulbs etc, I would welcome your input.

Many thanks,
SR

I did a yahoo search "energy Efficiency Grants in Scotland." One that came up Was energy Saving Trusts. Others were on the Page try those to to see what is available. The House is must like stone material of some kind . You may get a grant money to add insulation To The Out side of the House. The stone walls will then act a heat sink ti store heat. If you have much sunshine clear days. Consider adding larger windows facing the sun. Radiant heat from the sun is fantastic If You have Sunny Days.An Option A type of Green House Attached to the side of the house facing the sun. This works fantastic. You may need some experts on this item but. I was sorry that Susann Lost. She did seem to be relived the pressure was off. I expect to see a lot more of her . Please wish her the Best For Me

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090210/ap_on_go_pr_wh/fact_check_obama

OBAMA: "Not a single pet project," he told the news conference. "Not a single earmark."

THE FACTS: There are no "earmarks," as they are usually defined, inserted by lawmakers in the bill. Still, some of the projects bear the prime characteristics of pork — tailored to benefit specific interests or to have thinly disguised links to local projects.

For example, the latest version contains $2 billion for a clean-coal power plant with specifications matching one in Mattoon, Ill., $10 million for urban canals, $2 billion for manufacturing advanced batteries for hybrid cars, and $255 million for a polar icebreaker and other "priority procurements" by the Coast Guard.

Obama told his Elkhart audience that Indiana will benefit from work on "roads like U.S. 31 here in Indiana that Hoosiers count on." He added, "And I know that a new overpass downtown would make a huge difference for businesses and families right here in Elkhart."

U.S. 31 is a north-south highway serving South Bend, 15 miles from Elkhart in the northern part of the state.

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OBAMA: "My bottom line is, are we making 4 million jobs?" he told the news conference.

He said in Indiana, "The plot that we’ve place forward will save or make 3 million to 4 million jobs over the next two years."

THE FACTS: Job creation projections are uncertain even in stable times, and some of the economists relied on by Obama in making his forecast acknowledge a fantastic deal of uncertainty in their numbers.

The president’s own economists, in a report prepared last month, stated, "It should be understood that that all of the estimates presented in this memo are subject to significant margins of error."

Beyond that, it’s unlikely the nation will ever know how many jobs are saved as a result of the stimulus. While it’s clear when jobs are abolished, there’s no economic gauge that tracks job preservation.

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OBAMA: "They’ll be jobs building the wind turbines and solar panels and fuel-efficient cars that will lower our dependence on foreign oil and modernizing our costly health care system that will save us billions of dollars and countless lives."

THE FACTS: The economic stimulus bill would allocate about $20 billion to help hospitals and doctors transition from paper charts to electronic health records for their patients. Research has shown that in some instances, electronic record keeping can eliminate inappropriate services and improve care, but it’s not a sure thing by any means. "By itself, the adoption of more health IT is generally not sufficient to produce significant cost savings," the Congressional Budget Office reported last year.

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OBAMA: "I’ve appointed hundreds of people, all of whom are outstanding Americans who are doing a fantastic job. There are a couple who had problems before they came into my administration, in terms of their taxes. … I made a mistake. … I don’t want to send the signal that there are two sets of rules."

THE FACTS: Two of his appointees, former Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle for health and human services secretary and Nancy Killefer as Obama’s chief compliance officer, dropped out after reports they had not paid a part of their taxes.

Obama previously acknowledged he "screwed up" in making it seem to Americans that there is one set of tax compliance rules for VIPs and another set for everyone else. Yet his choice for treasury secretary, Timothy Geithner, achieved the post despite having belatedly paid $34,000 to the IRS, an agency Geithner now oversees.

That could leave the perception that there is one set of rules for Geithner and another set for everyone else.

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OBAMA: "We also inherited the most profound economic emergency since the Fantastic Depression."

THE FACTS: This could turn out to be the case. But as terrible as the economic numbers are, the unemployment figures have not reached the levels of the early 1980s, let alone the 1930s — yet. A total of 598,000 payroll jobs vanished in January — the most in nearly 35 years — and the unemployment rate jumped to 7.6 from 7.2 percent the month before. The most recent high was 7.8 percent in June 1992.

And the jobless rate was 10.8 percent in November and December 1982. Unemployment in the Fantastic Depression ranged for several years from 25 percent to close to 30 percent.

Hmm.. nobody can answer?

Perhaps they’re all drinking the cool-aid too.

Obama is clueless.

I tried to Answer Brun the Leader but Yahoo can’t handle the size of my answer. But it’s a FANTASTIC thought on how to neuter the banks and break us out of this recession, pay off our national debt, and bring unemployment in the USA down to 0. My question is … IS THIS FEASIBLE?
I voted for Chuck Baldwin. Chuck wants to eliminate the Fed. THAT is the only way that I can see of stopping the bankers. Chuck wants to remove the power of money creation from the Fed & return it to Congress.
When the Fed "made" that $700 billion out of NOTHING they then gave it to the banks to HELP them. The banks then LOANED the money back to people, govt, etc WITH INTEREST. It cost nothing to make it and cost the banks nothing to get it but we have to pay them back? What a crock!
If you eliminate the FED … you cut off their FREE money. The Fed is all the Ruling Families & they charge the govt interest on the $700 billion when they make it. So the FED is making interest on it AND the banks are making interest on it. The Fed has this country on lock down in that we can NEVER pay back what we owe. We can barely cover the interest on the money we owe already.
I just published the answer to this whole mess on Triond yesterday. It involves another bail-out but this time it would give the money to GM on condition that they rebuild DEtroit, build NEW homes and build a NEW auto plant that is the MOST advanced of ANY auto plant in the world. Robots & all. They would produce ONLY electric cars and hybrids capable of getting 300 mpg or better. ( see Aptera.com … they are already making them in Carlsbad, Calif. ) They would design these cars to be the best in the world. We have the technology, we have the expertise, we have the resources, GM just needs a boost of cash AND A NEW DIRECTION! WE need to incorporate the ideals of A. Edward Deming (deceased) who rebuilt the Japanese economy after WWII and Ford in 1980. GM needs to focus on cars that will go 300 miles for $3.25. Rebuilding Detroit will bring thousands of new jobs. Giving a lump of money to GE for windmill design and production will make us the global leader in windmills AND solar panels. GERMANY is the current leader in solar. WE NEED THAT and we can TAKE it from them. This is an industry that is new and fresh and needs inexpensive alternative to the expensive panels that are available now.
Dream with me here for a second. Imagine Detroit all rebuilt with thousands of new homes, and refurbished ancient ones. Take Brad PItt’s thought for New Orleans and use that for Detroit. New homes, thousands of new jobs, new industries. Pleased employed people making a product they can be proud of and supplying the world with the best product for the lowest price. No greed, just MASS production. Solar cars, electric cars. I have a friend who is patenting a magnetic motor that will generate enough power (35 amps) to re-charge a bank of 25 batteries in an electric car. These magnet motors can run 24/7 for 20 years with NO cost. You could place one or two in a car and drive up to 200 miles to work. The batteries are re-charged while you are at work for 8 hours. You drive up to 200 miles home and the batteries charge up while you sleep. You take the family to the beach on SAturday and while your kids play on the beach the batteries are re-charged. You go to work … go to the beach … go anywhere you want … and there is NO cost for fuel. Gasoline prices drop to 25c / gallon like in 1960 and Exxon BEGS people to use fuel. Exxon finally gives up and starts making solar panels and hydrogen fuel cells or they make compressed air engines from the designs that are currently being studied in India.
The United STates Re-Invents itself. We bring all the jobs HOME. We bring FORD AND GM plants from overseas HOME. What if we could make a transport ship that runs on solar power. Use solar paint and solar panels all over the surface of the ship. Have a back up of a nuclear powered engine for when there is fog. These cargo ships could deliver our products all over the world at NO FUEL COST! We would use thousands making these ships. Other countries would make a waiting list for these ships. Reckon we CAN’T design and build these? Nonsense. WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY. WE are the most advanced country in the world when we WANT to be. If we diverted our WAR MACHINE and converted all those factories to producing INEXPENSIVE solar panels and electric cars we would be the WORLD SOURCE and the country would prosper. Hell, we would do MORE than prosper. We could pay OFF our national debt, eliminate the Fed, close the IRS, and convert the IRS buildings into billing departments for the world’s corporations. WE could become the information hub of the world. We already control the computer industry and could solidify that in a heartbeat if we wanted to.

BUt the govt would have to MAKE a few Trillion dollars in cash and GIVE it to the corporations that SHOW that they can TAKE OVER A WORLD MARKET! The money could ONLY be

Roth-child owens 60 sum estates and the thought of cutting off the bread line to the Rothschild’s life it self .They use thousands if not millions of people Look at John Turmel who is up and in their face protesting usury John and me and you will never stop the family of the Golden Rule .You got the gold you Rule ! And again their God is and always will be Gold, Oil,& Drugs GOD ! what hurts is that we live on the same planet and have the rights as everything that has taken birth
and One family that could Save the World would rather exploit the very people that gave them the power of Control So how many years will we face this abuse and slavery by the few And what would we do with the game of MONOPOLY maybe a game of BARTER AND
EXCHANGE I can sense your frustration to all of this Crap and to know now that where just Slaves and can`t do a thing about it, just grow ancient and die in and the name of DEBT "God help the Children ;